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Julie Zhuo

Julie Zhuo

@julie-zhuo · 43 positions · On ppll ↗

Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product design at Facebook; author of The Making of a Manager; writes The Looking Glass.

Julie Zhuo did not write this page.

We collected these quotes from things they published elsewhere, and every quote links to where it was said. They have no account here and have not endorsed this site. Quotes are word for word; the short line under each one is our own restatement, not their wording. Their own site. Is this you? Claim it or ask us to remove it. Or tell us what is wrong here.

The ideas Julie Zhuo's claims keep coming back to. The labels are ours; every quote is Julie Zhuo's own words.

Holds now (9)

How these views changed over time2020–2025
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2020 2 views
2021–22 2 quiet
2023 +1 new · 1 back
2024 2 quiet
2025 +6 new · 2 back

Each column is a stretch of time in which the same views came up; a new column starts when one appears or goes quiet. Quiet means nothing on it in our sources for that stretch, which is not the same as a change of mind; Dropped means they said they no longer hold it; tap the card for which claim and when. Revised means the view carries on but one of its claims was dropped. Each row is one view, in the same place all the way along. The number is how many claims in that stretch; we hold 2 in 2020, 0 in 2021, 0 in 2022, 7 in 2023, 0 in 2024, 32 in 2025.

Taste is telling excellent from mediocre; it is more objective, and more exposed to AI, than people assume

Our label. 5 claims in Julie Zhuo's own words.

Taste makes only a small ripple in a pond you already know; it is luck that sometimes carries it further.

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… Taste, that lovely thing, is simply an ability to make a small ripple in the small pond we are familiar with; sometimes, luck takes that ripple and propels it across other ponds and oceans. Stay Healthy. Stay Data-Informed.lg.substack.com · 17 Mar 2020All korrents from this piece
    Taste, that lovely thing, is simply an ability to make a small ripple in the small pond we are familiar with; sometimes, luck takes that ripple and propels it across other ponds and oceans.

Taste is the ability to distinguish excellence from mediocrity, and the hand can never consistently produce better than the eye can discern.

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… Good taste: taste is the ability to distinguish excellence from mediocrity. The hand can never consistently produce better than the eye can discern. The Death of Product Development as We Know itlg.substack.com · 25 Mar 2025
    Good taste: taste is the ability to distinguish excellence from mediocrity. The hand can never consistently produce better than the eye can discern.

At the highest level taste is not just prediction but movement-making, and the most significant tastemakers take social risks.

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… at the highest echelons, taste is not just prediction, it’s also movement making. The most significant tastemakers take social risks. When AI Has Better Taste Than Youlg.substack.com · 24 Jun 2025All korrents from this piece
    at the highest echelons, taste is not just prediction, it’s also movement making. The most significant tastemakers take social risks.

Seen as prediction, human taste is far more vulnerable to AI than people like to admit.

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… Seen as a prediction engine, human taste is far more vulnerable to AI competition than we'd like to admit. When AI Has Better Taste Than Youlg.substack.com · 24 Jun 2025All korrents from this piece
    Seen as a prediction engine, human taste is far more vulnerable to AI competition than we'd like to admit.

Design is how a product works, and the best interface is the one that feels obvious to use

Our label. 7 claims in Julie Zhuo's own words.

Design is not how a product looks; it is how it works, and all builders are designers.

Design is how it works

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… Design is not the way it looks, or beautiful colors and animations. It's not the brand or the logo. It is how the product works. Designing is the the process of exploring and arriving at a solution. I believe all builders are designers. The Looking Glass: What AI Won't Changelg.substack.com · 20 Apr 2023
    Design is not the way it looks, or beautiful colors and animations. It's not the brand or the logo. It is how the product works. Designing is the the process of exploring and arriving at a solution. I believe all builders are designers.

Better design does not mean more design: the most obvious designs are often invisible.

Less, but better

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… Better design does not mean more design. Often, the most obvious designs are invisible. The Looking Glass: How to tell if work is beautifullg.substack.com · 16 Nov 2023
    Better design does not mean more design. Often, the most obvious designs are invisible.

Obviousness comes from conforming to people's existing mental models: do not reinvent a common UI pattern unless the new one is at least twice as good.

Conventions (Jakob's law)

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… Obviousness comes from conforming to people’s existing mental models. Don’t waste time reinventing common UI patterns or paradigms unless they are at least 2x better, or you have some critical brand reason to do so. The Looking Glass: How to tell if work is beautifullg.substack.com · 16 Nov 2023
    Obviousness comes from conforming to people’s existing mental models. Don’t waste time reinventing common UI patterns or paradigms unless they are at least 2x better, or you have some critical brand reason to do so.

Do not judge a product's beauty by its aesthetics; judge it by how it made you feel.

Design is how it works

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… Do not judge a product’s beauty by its aesthetics; judge it by how it made you feel. The Looking Glass: How to tell if work is beautifullg.substack.com · 16 Nov 2023
    Do not judge a product’s beauty by its aesthetics; judge it by how it made you feel.

The most powerful rule for an exceptional interface is that it feels obvious to use; novelty, minimalism and simplicity are means to that, not the end.

Design is how it works, Conventions (Jakob's law)

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… Sometimes designers will go to great lengths to make a user interface novel, or minimal, or simple. This is the wrong goal. Novelty, minimalism or simplicity are good heuristics for obviousness, but do not mistake the means for the end. Conversational Interfaces: the Good, the Ugly & the Billion-Dollar Opportunitylg.substack.com · 12 May 2025
    Sometimes designers will go to great lengths to make a user interface novel, or minimal, or simple. This is the wrong goal. Novelty, minimalism or simplicity are good heuristics for obviousness, but do not mistake the means for the end.

A blank chat box is lazy: it violates the first rule of a good user experience, that it is obvious what you can do.

Affordances and signifiers

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… The problem with a blank chat box on a blank page is that it violates the first rule of a high-quality user experience: it isn’t obvious what I can do. Conversational Interfaces: the Good, the Ugly & the Billion-Dollar Opportunitylg.substack.com · 12 May 2025
    The problem with a blank chat box on a blank page is that it violates the first rule of a high-quality user experience: it isn’t obvious what I can do.

ChatGPT exploded because of its obvious chat interface, not its technology, which had launched earlier in a different wrapper that few noticed.

Affordances and signifiers

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… The technology powering ChatGPT had already launched prior to November 30th, 2022. It was just wrapped in a different interface. Very few people paid attention. Why did ChatGPT explode in popularity? Because of its obvious chat interface, which everyone intuitively already knew how to use it. Conversational Interfaces: the Good, the Ugly & the Billion-Dollar Opportunitylg.substack.com · 12 May 2025
    The technology powering ChatGPT had already launched prior to November 30th, 2022. It was just wrapped in a different interface. Very few people paid attention. Why did ChatGPT explode in popularity? Because of its obvious chat interface, which everyone intuitively already knew how to use it.

Your intuition is not evidence about users: assume you know nothing and check with the people you design for

Our label. 3 claims in Julie Zhuo's own words.

Rather than coasting on intuition and taste, a data-informed person starts from the assumption that they know nothing.

Curse of knowledge

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… Rather than surfing by on intuition and taste, the data-informed individual adopts a beginner's mindset: Assume you know nothing Stay Healthy. Stay Data-Informed.lg.substack.com · 17 Mar 2020All korrents from this piece
    Rather than surfing by on intuition and taste, the data-informed individual adopts a beginner's mindset: Assume you know nothing

The more your target audience does not look like you, the more you should be skeptical of your design intuition.

You are not the user

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… The more your target audience does not look like you, the more you should be skeptical of your design intuition. Despite having seen thousands of a/b test results for minor design details, I am still regularly surprised and humbled by my intuition being wrong. The Looking Glass: What AI Won't Changelg.substack.com · 20 Apr 2023
    The more your target audience does not look like you, the more you should be skeptical of your design intuition. Despite having seen thousands of a/b test results for minor design details, I am still regularly surprised and humbled by my intuition being wrong.

If the people a product is designed for cannot generally agree that the design is good, it is not good.

You are not the user

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… If you cannot get a group of people for whom your product is designed for to generally agree that your design is good, it’s not good. The Looking Glass: How to tell if work is beautifullg.substack.com · 16 Nov 2023
    If you cannot get a group of people for whom your product is designed for to generally agree that your design is good, it’s not good.

Data can tell you where a problem is, never what to build; choosing what to measure is itself judgment

Our label. 3 claims in Julie Zhuo's own words.

You cannot A/B test your way into a really great product.

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… So the other thing I would say that I really support is like you just actually can't make a really great product by thinking you can AB test your way into it. From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuoyoutube.com · 21 Sept 2025 · 0:36:01 into the videoAll korrents from this video
    So the other thing I would say that I really support is like you just actually can't make a really great product by thinking you can AB test your way into it.

Numbers offer a false precision: which metrics you choose to look at, and whether a five percent rise is good, are both art rather than science.

The map is not the territory

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… Because it's like okay we got these numbers and the numbers go up. It's like no, the fact that you still have to choose which things you look at is an art, not a science. And your interpretation of if the number went up 5%, is that good? Is that not good? Is also an interpretation and is an is an art, not a science. From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuoyoutube.com · 21 Sept 2025 · 0:35:14 into the videoAll korrents from this video
    Because it's like okay we got these numbers and the numbers go up. It's like no, the fact that you still have to choose which things you look at is an art, not a science. And your interpretation of if the number went up 5%, is that good? Is that not good? Is also an interpretation and is an is an art, not a science.

Diagnose with data and treat with design: data can tell you that you have a problem and where it is, and it can never tell you what to build.

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… what you really want is you want to diagnose with data and treat with design. So data is not a tool that's going to tell you what you should build or what the solution is or how we're going to, you know, cure the fact that you don't have really great retention. It's just not. From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuoyoutube.com · 21 Sept 2025 · 0:32:56 into the videoAll korrents from this video
    what you really want is you want to diagnose with data and treat with design. So data is not a tool that's going to tell you what you should build or what the solution is or how we're going to, you know, cure the fact that you don't have really great retention. It's just not.

Companies need instrumentation to understand their users, and many fast-growing ones never built it

Our label. 3 claims in Julie Zhuo's own words.

Growth always stops eventually, and only a company that instrumented its business beforehand gets to find out why instead of scrambling.

S-curves and diminishing returns

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… It's easier to even predict whether growth will slow down at a certain point. it's easier to catch these trends earlier. If you don't have good observability over how your business runs and what the company's um key levers are, then you will be scrambling. From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuoyoutube.com · 21 Sept 2025 · 0:29:32 into the videoAll korrents from this video
    It's easier to even predict whether growth will slow down at a certain point. it's easier to catch these trends earlier. If you don't have good observability over how your business runs and what the company's um key levers are, then you will be scrambling.

The fastest-growing companies are not using data well, because they reached enormous scale before they had time to build any of the instrumentation.

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… So the funny thing, my funny answer to this is I don't actually think a lot of the fast growing companies are using data well at this point. And the main reason why is because traditionally things just didn't grow that fast. From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuoyoutube.com · 21 Sept 2025 · 0:27:40 into the videoAll korrents from this video
    So the funny thing, my funny answer to this is I don't actually think a lot of the fast growing companies are using data well at this point. And the main reason why is because traditionally things just didn't grow that fast.

Conversational products have made user intent far harder to measure, because a click on a tab told you what somebody wanted and a conversation does not.

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… used to be let's say in the Google world right I knew you were interested in shopping if you click the shopping tab I know you're interested in maps if you click the maps tab, we can measure clicks. Today, it's just all conversation. And so, it's actually harder for us to tease apart what is the user intent. From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuoyoutube.com · 21 Sept 2025 · 0:30:36 into the videoAll korrents from this video
    used to be let's say in the Google world right I knew you were interested in shopping if you click the shopping tab I know you're interested in maps if you click the maps tab, we can measure clicks. Today, it's just all conversation. And so, it's actually harder for us to tease apart what is the user intent.

A manager is a guide who manages change, with feedback as a daily habit rather than a verdict

Our label. 5 claims in Julie Zhuo's own words.

In the best working relationships the manager is a guide, not a judge deciding whether you deserve a promotion or a firing.

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… we often also have this mental model of like oh our managers are a judge and they're going to judge me on whether or not I got it I did well I should get a promotion I should be fired so there's this sometimes fear that people have but I think in the very best relationships the manager is like a guide From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuoyoutube.com · 21 Sept 2025 · 0:54:29 into the videoAll korrents from this video
    we often also have this mental model of like oh our managers are a judge and they're going to judge me on whether or not I got it I did well I should get a promotion I should be fired so there's this sometimes fear that people have but I think in the very best relationships the manager is like a guide

Feedback should be a daily practice rather than a twice-yearly review, because the team that improves one percent a week overtakes the team that improves one percent a month.

Feedback loops, Compounding

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… But feedback really in my mind ideally should be like a daily practice because the thing that matters for us in the long run as a team is how quickly are we getting better. So a team that just gets 1% better every week compared to a team that gets 1% better a month is even if they start off at a much lower baseline is going to outperform in a very short amount of time the team that doesn't get better. From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuoyoutube.com · 21 Sept 2025 · 0:58:21 into the videoAll korrents from this video
    But feedback really in my mind ideally should be like a daily practice because the thing that matters for us in the long run as a team is how quickly are we getting better. So a team that just gets 1% better every week compared to a team that gets 1% better a month is even if they start off at a much lower baseline is going to outperform in a very short amount of time the team that doesn't get better.

Management today is the willow tree's trick — being sturdy by being flexible — and it is very hard to pull off.

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… and that's in some ways what allows it to be very sturdy so I Think today management is really about this idea of like be sturdy while being flexible and that is a very hard thing to pull off From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuoyoutube.com · 21 Sept 2025 · 0:39:59 into the videoAll korrents from this video
    and that's in some ways what allows it to be very sturdy so I Think today management is really about this idea of like be sturdy while being flexible and that is a very hard thing to pull off

Managing change has always been the manager's whole job; the only thing AI changed is how fast the change now arrives.

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… I think that managing change, it's always been manager's job to manage change and there's always the chaos of what's going on. I just think the rate of change is accelerating and we've seen that over the last couple of decades. From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuoyoutube.com · 21 Sept 2025 · 0:37:34 into the videoAll korrents from this video
    I think that managing change, it's always been manager's job to manage change and there's always the chaos of what's going on. I just think the rate of change is accelerating and we've seen that over the last couple of decades.

No project run by a manager who privately thinks it is a bad idea has ever turned out wildly successful.

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… I can tell you right now, every single manager I've ever managed where they're like, I don't really think this is a good idea. The there's no case where I can think of where the project somehow turned out to be like wildly successful. From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuoyoutube.com · 21 Sept 2025 · 1:12:00 into the videoAll korrents from this video
    I can tell you right now, every single manager I've ever managed where they're like, I don't really think this is a good idea. The there's no case where I can think of where the project somehow turned out to be like wildly successful.

AI lets tiny teams of generalists replace separate roles, mocks and handoffs

Our label. 4 claims in Julie Zhuo's own words.

AI favours tiny teams of high-agency individual contributors with blurred roles, and the coordinating manager is not needed until it is time to polish.

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… Welcome to the era of AI-native companies, where individual contributors (ICs) reign supreme. The Death of Product Development as We Know itlg.substack.com · 25 Mar 2025
    Welcome to the era of AI-native companies, where individual contributors (ICs) reign supreme.

Mocks and docs are dying: AI-native teams prototype and prune with code-first prototypes instead of static mocks and product requirement documents.

Make it real

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… Say goodbye to cycles of mock and doc feedback, and say hello to code-first prototypes with constant iteration (on prompts, models, etc) to answer three key questions. The Death of Product Development as We Know itlg.substack.com · 25 Mar 2025
    Say goodbye to cycles of mock and doc feedback, and say hello to code-first prototypes with constant iteration (on prompts, models, etc) to answer three key questions.

Putting a product manager on a team invites everyone else to delegate the product thinking away, which is why she does not hire them.

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… I find that sometimes when you have like a designer or product manager and let's say I'm an engineer, then when I have a problem like, oh, I need to figure out the product definition, my default will be, well, I've got these people and that's kind of their job description, so I'm just going to delegate that to them. From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuoyoutube.com · 21 Sept 2025 · 0:17:17 into the videoAll korrents from this video
    I find that sometimes when you have like a designer or product manager and let's say I'm an engineer, then when I have a problem like, oh, I need to figure out the product definition, my default will be, well, I've got these people and that's kind of their job description, so I'm just going to delegate that to them.

AI has made individuals capable enough that the boundaries between engineer, designer, researcher and product manager should be dissolved.

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… And so the main thing that I felt so excited about and this is something I tell my team all the time is we need to dissolve the boundaries of these traditional roles. From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuoyoutube.com · 21 Sept 2025 · 0:15:36 into the videoAll korrents from this video
    And so the main thing that I felt so excited about and this is something I tell my team all the time is we need to dissolve the boundaries of these traditional roles.

Managing AI is managing people: say what success looks like and learn what each one is good at

Our label. 3 claims in Julie Zhuo's own words.

Managing agents is the same job as managing people: fix the outcome, work out what your resources are good at, and design the process.

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… management is just about in my mind having an outcome. So you want to get something done. That's the thing. You have a northstar. You have a vision and you're just trying to figure out how to use the resources that you have to get that thing done. From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuoyoutube.com · 21 Sept 2025 · 0:09:22 into the videoAll korrents from this video
    management is just about in my mind having an outcome. So you want to get something done. That's the thing. You have a northstar. You have a vision and you're just trying to figure out how to use the resources that you have to get that thing done.

If you cannot say crisply what success looks like, you will not get great work — out of a team or out of an AI.

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… if you're really unclear about what success looks like the prompt, you're probably not going to get the most amazing work. Um I think that's true for managing teams and it's very much true for managing AIs. From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuoyoutube.com · 21 Sept 2025 · 0:13:49 into the videoAll korrents from this video
    if you're really unclear about what success looks like the prompt, you're probably not going to get the most amazing work. Um I think that's true for managing teams and it's very much true for managing AIs.

Models have personalities the way people do, and using them well means developing an intuition for which one to reach for.

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… And you have to understand the strengths of of you know used to be people but now it's basically models and different models have different strengths. So it's like they have different personalities From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuoyoutube.com · 21 Sept 2025 · 0:10:14 into the videoAll korrents from this video
    And you have to understand the strengths of of you know used to be people but now it's basically models and different models have different strengths. So it's like they have different personalities

AI is best used to learn fast and worst used to dodge hard feelings; it gets you to good, not world-class

Our label. 3 claims in Julie Zhuo's own words.

The real danger of AI is not that it does our work but that it lets us shortcut hard feelings, the way a phone already lets us avoid a difficult conversation.

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… You can shortcut like hard feelings because now you can just watch TikTok instead of actually dealing with the very difficult emotion or tension that you had with a colleague or with your partner or with your children. From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuoyoutube.com · 21 Sept 2025 · 1:32:29 into the videoAll korrents from this video
    You can shortcut like hard feelings because now you can just watch TikTok instead of actually dealing with the very difficult emotion or tension that you had with a colleague or with your partner or with your children.

The most underused thing AI does is teach you: people reach for it to write their code and forget it can take them through a curriculum in an hour.

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… So yes, the tools are great. We can use cursor. It helps us. It autocompletes. It writes a bunch of things. But the acceleration of learning I think is another maybe underutilized tool in all of our arsenals From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuoyoutube.com · 21 Sept 2025 · 0:24:06 into the videoAll korrents from this video
    So yes, the tools are great. We can use cursor. It helps us. It autocompletes. It writes a bunch of things. But the acceleration of learning I think is another maybe underutilized tool in all of our arsenals

AI will not make you world-class at a skill, but it takes a near-beginner to roughly the sixtieth or seventieth percentile of it today.

  1. Julie Zhuo Co-founder of Sundial; former vice president of product… but if I was, you know, at the zero or 10th percentile, it can certainly get me even today very quickly up to like the 60th 70th in terms of um what the state of the art is. From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuoyoutube.com · 21 Sept 2025 · 0:15:20 into the videoAll korrents from this video
    but if I was, you know, at the zero or 10th percentile, it can certainly get me even today very quickly up to like the 60th 70th in terms of um what the state of the art is.