korrents

korrents · The Pragmatic Engineer Podcast

How Kent Beck shapes the software engineering industry

Kent Beck · 2h 28m · youtube.com ↗

28 korrents from this recording

1h2h
Kent Beck did not write this page.

Every claim below is a statement made in this recording, quoted word for word and linked to the second it was said, so you can hear it rather than take our word for it. The wording comes from the transcript published alongside the recording; the sentence above each quote is our reading of the claim, not their wording.

  1. 0:04:00 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Saying that coding will be automated away first betrays a misunderstanding of software engineering, because coding is only a small part of the work.

    Their wordsMy response is that that's a statement by someone who doesn't understand software engineering. Coding is part of what you're doing, but it's only a small part of what you're doing.
    Interesting
  2. 1 min later

  3. 0:05:08 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    The industry is now accumulating code faster than it is accumulating trust, and trust only comes from having struggled to understand the domain yourself.

    Their wordswe're accumulating code faster than we're accumulating trust and that sense of trust comes from me struggling to understand some domain concept I get it. I represent it in the code. I have I write tests that demonstrate that I really did understand it. And now I trust my program.
    Interesting
  4. 3 min later

  5. 0:07:42 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Engineers were promised that understanding the computer would be enough, and the human skills they were told they could skip turn out to be the hard part.

    Their wordsSo I was promised just understand the computer and then just kidding understand people from a position where I was already 10 years behind.
    Interesting
  6. 16 min later

  7. 0:23:57 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Letting non-programmers build their own unmaintainable software is still a large step forward, because the alternative was a thousand-page requirements document and an eight-year wait.

    Their wordsYou look under the underneath though at the code and it was just a horrible unmaintainable mess. But the fact that people could program the programs that they wanted was a a significant step forward as opposed to I'm going to write a thousandpage requirements document and then wait 8 years and not get what I want which was the alternative that we were offering at the at the time.
    Interesting
  8. 13 min later

  9. 0:37:05 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Programs exist to communicate intent to other people and now to models as well, and we do not understand at all how to communicate effectively to models.

    Their wordspart of the goal of programs is to communicate intent to other human beings and now to models as well which which is a much more open-ended problem. We understand a lot more about how to communicate to other human beings whether we apply that understanding or not. We don't understand at all how to communicate effectively to models
    Interesting
  10. 6 min later

  11. 0:43:00 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    An outside expert's understanding of somebody else's problem is bounded, because they do not have to live with the design after they leave.

    Their wordsYour understanding of somebody else's problem is bounded because you're not in the middle of it. You don't have the same skin in the game. If you're not semiconductor test engineer, you don't have as much skin in the game as somebody who is because they're going to have to be using this interface for a long time after you're gone.
    Interesting
  12. 10 min later

  13. 0:52:57 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Moving the computation to where the data lives is the fundamental design move in object-oriented programming, and it got lost in the noise.

    Their wordsSo a a big challenge in object-oriented programming is dividing the responsibilities because you're moving the computation to where the data is. Saying, "Well, this object does this and that object does that is a really critical decision because you want to you want the computation near to the data so that there's less coupling between them." which is a lesson that I I think uh kind of got lost in the noise. That's the fundamental design move in ob in designing object-oriented programs and I I think I stand behind that.
    Interesting
  14. 7 min later

  15. 1:00:07 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Unit testing frameworks arrived so late because testing was a status divide, and testers had every incentive to keep a separate tool and language of their own.

    Their wordsSo beforehand because of this social divide between programmers and testers. There was a lot of incentive for the testers to have their own language. This is my tool. I know how to run it. I'm going to run it.
    Interesting
  16. 12 min later

  17. 1:12:33 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Programming, not diagramming, is where an engineer actually learns, because code is the point at which you can no longer fool yourself about what you understand.

    Their wordsand I thought programming sitting fingers on keyboard staring at code that's that's where I do my learning because that's where you can no longer fool yourself that you actually understand either you compute the correct value or you don't compute the correct value. So I wanted to elevate that moment of reality meets program and that's where the programming comes from.
    Interesting
  18. 8 min later

  19. 1:20:14 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Always try your stupid ideas when the experiment is cheap and reversible, because the one that works has no competition.

    Their wordsAlways try your stupid ideas if you can do it cheaply and reversibly. Jumping off a bridge is not a reversible decision. Not talking about that. I'm talking about stuff like this where you're just like, "Here's a stupid idea." 99 times out of a 100 it'll fail. But that one time you won't have any competition cuz nobody else is stupid enough to try this idea.
    Interesting
  20. 1 min later

  21. 1:21:42 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Having an AI agent write tests costs tokens in the short run and saves them in the long run, because the classic failure is that the code does not work.

    Their wordsIt costs tokens in the short run, but it can save them in the long run because one of the classic genie mistakes is stuff doesn't work.
    Interesting
  22. 1 min later

  23. 1:22:17 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    TDD fell out of fashion partly because its advocates turned it into a moral test of professionalism, when people write very good software with a wide variety of workflows.

    Their wordsAnd then there were people who used it as a moral cudgel. Like you should be if you're not using TDD, you're not professional. And that's just such People can write very good software with a wide variety of workflows.
    Interesting
  24. 1 min later

  25. 1:23:16 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    TDD earns its keep only where work alternates rapidly between doing and learning; choosing it is a practical decision, never a moral one.

    Their wordsIt's when you have this rapid alternation between I do a thing, I learn a thing, I do a thing, I learn a thing, I do a thing, I learn a thing. That's where TDD is really powerful. But it's not a moral decision. It's a practical decision.
    Interesting
  26. 10 min later

  27. 1:32:56 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Naming the movement 'agile' was a mistake, because the word is indefensible: nobody will ever admit to not being agile, while nobody claims to be an extreme programmer without having done the work.

    Their wordswhat I don't like about it I didn't like about it then and still don't like about it is it's not defensible. Nobody's going to say I'm not agile. Oh no, I prefer rigid development. Oh, I prefer inflexible development. No, everybody's going to say that they're agile, which extreme doesn't have that problem.
    Interesting
  28. 2 min later

  29. 1:34:36 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    The Agile Manifesto is only the intersection of the ideas of the people who happened to be in the room, and there is far more to software development than it contains.

    Their wordsThe agile manifesto is the intersection of the ideas of the people in the room. I think there's a lot more to software development than is contained in the manifesto. And I've written books and books and books about what I think those things are.
    Interesting
  30. 1 min later

  31. 1:35:55 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Promising twice the work in half the time without the hard-won technical skills is simply a lie.

    Their wordsAnd there were people who were willing to say, "Nah, no, no, don't worry about that. This is easy. You can do this. Anybody can do this. Twice the work in half the time." From my perspective, that's just a lie.
    Interesting
  32. 6 min later

  33. 1:41:30 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    The adulation and the abuse a well-known figure receives are both about the audience's need for a hero or a villain, and have nothing to do with the person.

    Their wordsAnd what I had to learn was the reason that people come to me with those out of proportion responses is because that's what they need. They need a hero or they need a villain. and their need for a hero or a villain has nothing to do with me. If it wasn't me, they'd be contacting you. They'd be contacting somebody else. It really doesn't have anything to to do about me.
    Interesting
  34. 9 min later

  35. 1:50:21 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Facebook could ship safely without much unit testing because it had many independent layers of feedback, each one catching what the earlier layers missed.

    Their wordsThen you had code review which gave you another level of feedback. You could roll out internally more frequently. And everybody was using Facebook for all kinds of stuff, personal and internal business stuff. So whatever feature you developed, people would start using it immediately. So you get another round of feedback. Then we had this phased roll out process where you'd start rolling your stuff out. If there was a problem, the blast radius would be limited to a a few million people.
    Interesting
  36. 8 min later

  37. 1:58:23 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    An engineer who accomplishes every goal they set is sandbagging; hitting about half of them is the sign of someone risking and learning enough.

    Their wordsIf you accomplished everything you set out to accomplish, people, you know, you're sandbagging. you're not trying hard enough. You're not risking enough. You didn't learn anything over the course of the six months.
    Interesting
  38. 6 min later

  39. 2:04:09 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    A coach's job is to identify and induce productive discomfort, not to reassure people that they are doing fine.

    Their wordsIt's not always pleasant. It's not a pat you on the head and you're going to be fine. It's a It's a don't like no, you're screwing this up. Go try this thing. Tell me how that works. Oh, you didn't try the thing. Oh, you don't want to work on this? Okay, we're done. Quite uncompromising. uh I say coaches are are there to identify and induce productive discomfort
    Interesting
  40. 3 min later

  41. 2:07:15 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Empathy, body language and tone of voice are learnable skills, and expecting the world to adapt to how you are wired is not going to work.

    Their wordsThere are people who say, "Well, it's up to the rest of the world to adapt to the ways that I'm weird." It's just not because I mean, it's not going to happen. So, learning empathy, learning how to read body language, learning how to read tone of voice, this is not natural skills, but they're skills. They're learnable.
    Interesting
  42. 3 min later

  43. 2:10:36 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    AI has accelerated the pace of development but not the pace of business, and that mismatch will become more and more apparent.

    Their wordsSo one of the things is that the pace of development is definitely accelerated. One thing I wonder the pace of business hasn't accelerated though and that mismatch is going to become more and more apparent.
    Interesting
  44. 3 min later

  45. 2:13:50 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Companies protected by high switching costs will see those costs fall to zero, and their profits with them.

    Their wordsOkay. So now we have people who've been able to rely on switching costs to protect their profits and the switching costs just drop to zero. Their profits are going to drop to zero and and some people aren't going to survive that change.
    Interesting
  46. 2 min later

  47. 2:15:20 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    People who vibe-code a replacement for a product will rebuild the visible tip of the iceberg and then discover the downstream problems they never knew existed.

    Their wordsSo, we're going to see people get into those where they're like, "Well, I vibe code the tip of the iceberg. I throw away the rest of the iceberg and now I'm in trouble because now I don't know what to do. Now I get to these downstream problems that I didn't even know existed." So, we're going to see on the on the side of the the the vibe coding replacers, we're going to see that kind of a naivity play out.
    Interesting
  48. 3 min later

  49. 2:18:48 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Exploring, expanding and extracting are three distinct phases, and how you write code, who you hire and how you organise should be completely different in each.

    Their wordsSo how you write code, how you manage projects, who you hire, how many people, what the org structure is is completely different in the three phases.
    Interesting
  50. 1 min later

  51. 2:19:46 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    AI has wiped the senior engineer's playbook clean, and writing a playbook is a completely different skill from applying one.

    Their wordsNobody knows now. That playbook has been wiped clean and people whose identity is I know the playbook are now terrified. Who who am I? Now, it turns out that the skill of writing a playbook is completely different than the skill of applying a playbook.
    Interesting
  52. 2 min later

  53. 2:21:52 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    It is far too soon for a manifesto about AI development: the Agile Manifesto took fifteen years of object-oriented practice before anyone could write it.

    Their wordswhich is why when I see manifestos today I'm just like too soon. Not a bad idea. Would love to have one just too soon. It took 15 years for the technical change of object-oriented programming to come before we could say here are the consequences of it. Here's how in a simple way we can express how to effectively use this technology that we've been using day in and day out for 15 years. The genie comes along. People are like, "Well, what's the new manifesto? It's just not manifesto time yet.
    Interesting
  54. 3 min later

  55. 2:24:43 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    When an AI agent runs out of forward progress, throw the project away and start over rather than trying to tweak it.

    Their wordsthe genie runs out of g runs itself out of options it can't make further forward progress and so I'll wipe it away start over I won't try and tweak I'll start over and say all right well if I implement things in a different order. If I implement with this markdown file or if I implement it with this commit hook, we collectively need to try absolutely everything.
    Interesting