korrents

korrents · Lex Fridman Podcast · #415

Serhii Plokhy: History of Ukraine, Russia, Soviet Union, KGB, Nazis & War | Lex Fridman Podcast #415

Serhii Plokhy · 3h 20m · youtube.com ↗

30 korrents from this recording

1h2h3h
Serhii Plokhy did not write this page.

Every claim below is a statement made in this recording, quoted word for word and linked to the second it was said, so you can hear it rather than take our word for it. The wording comes from the transcript published alongside the recording; the sentence above each quote is our reading of the claim, not their wording.

  1. 0:01:25 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    The collapse of communism, the end of the Cold War and the end of the Soviet Union were three different processes, and people constantly confuse them.

    Their wordsVery often people confuse three different processes that were taking place in the late ’80s and early ’90s, and the one was the collapse of communism as ideology. Another was the end of the Cold War. And the third one was the end of the Soviet Union.
    Interesting
  2. 2 min later

  3. 0:03:36 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    The fall of the Soviet Union was not a one-off event but the continuation of the disintegration of the Russian Empire that began in 1917 and was merely arrested by the Bolsheviks.

    Their wordsAnd the Soviet collapse is continuation of the disintegration of the Russian Empire that started back in 1917, that was arrested for some period of time by the Bolsheviks, by the Communist ideology, which was internationalist ideology. And then came back in full force in the late ’80s and early ’90s.
    Interesting
  4. 1 min later

  5. 0:04:19 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Russian nationalism turned out to be as destructive to the multinational Soviet state as Ukrainian, Georgian or Estonian nationalism was.

    Their wordsSo the most important story for me, this is the story of the continuing collapse of the Russian Empire and the rise of not just local nationalism, but also rise of Russian nationalism that turned out to be as a destructive force for the imperial or multi-ethnic, multinational state, as was Ukrainian nationalism or Georgian or Estonian for that matter.
    Interesting
  6. 1 min later

  7. 0:05:18 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    The United States did not bring down the Soviet Union: it did not want the Soviet Union to disintegrate, at the start of the Cold War or in 1991.

    Their wordsThe United States of America didn’t want the Soviet Union to collapse and disintegrate. They didn’t want that at the start of the Cold War in 1948. We now have the strategic documents. They were concerned about that, they didn’t want to do that. And certainly they didn’t want to do that in the year 1991.
    Interesting
  8. 3 min later

  9. 0:08:36 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    The Soviet Union would have collapsed with or without Gorbachev — in a different form, on someone else's watch, at some later date.

    Their wordsWhat I think would happen one way or another is the Soviet collapse in a different form, on somebody else’s watch at some later period in time.
    Interesting

  11. 0:09:03 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    The biggest thing that happened in the 20th century was the redrawing of the map of the world and the birth of dozens, if not hundreds, of new states.

    Their wordsBut the biggest global thing that happened was redrawing the map of the world and producing dozens, if not hundreds, of new states. That’s the outcome of the different processes of the 20th century.
    Interesting
  12. 5 min later

  13. 0:13:42 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Ukraine's vote for independence is what ended the Soviet Union, and Ukraine is exactly as decisive today for anyone wanting to restore Russian control over the post-Soviet space.

    Their wordsAnd the combination of all this factors led to the processes in which Ukraine’s decision to go independent spelled the end to the Soviet Union. And if today anybody wants to restore, not the Soviet Union, but some form of Russian control over the post-Soviet space, Ukraine is as important today as it was back in December of 1991.
    Interesting
  14. 3 min later

  15. 0:16:54 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    When Putin calls the Soviet collapse the greatest catastrophe of the century he is not mourning lives lost but great power status and the unity of the people he counts as Russian.

    Their wordsSo for him, the biggest tragedy is not the loss of life, the biggest tragedy is the loss of the great power status or the unity of those whom he considered to be Russian nations.
    Interesting
  16. 8 min later

  17. 0:24:51 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Rus is not Russia: it was a self-name for many different groups on that territory, and Moscow did not yet exist when Kyiv became a capital.

    Their wordsSo very important to keep in mind that Rus is not Russia because that was a self-name for all multiple groups on that territory. And Moscow doesn’t exist at the time when Kyiv emerges as the capital. The first reference to Moscow comes from the 12th century when it was founded by one of the Kievan princes.
    Interesting
  18. 9 min later

  19. 0:34:00 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    The Russian Empire acquired a sixth of the Earth by integrating conquered elites rather than their peoples, and nationalism is what made that model fall apart.

    Their wordsThe elites would be integrated, and the empire was based on the state loyalty and the state integration. But once you bring in the factor of nation and nationalism and language, then, once in a sudden, the whole model of the integration of the elites, irrespective of their language, religion, and culture, starts falling apart.
    Interesting
  20. 10 min later

  21. 0:43:51 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Calling Bandera a Nazi collaborator gives you exactly the same grounds for calling Stalin one, because the years of collaboration were the same years.

    Their wordsIf you focus on the years of collaboration, those were the same years when Joseph Stalin collaborated with Hitler, right? So, we have the same reason to call Stalin Nazi collaborator as we have the reason to call Bandera Nazi collaborator.
    Interesting
  22. 1 min later

  23. 0:45:13 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Bandera is a symbol of resistance to Soviet occupation for a fight he could not have led, because he was not in Ukraine at the time.

    Their wordsAgain, we are talking here about myth and mythology, because Bandera was not leading the fight against the Soviet occupation in Ukraine because, at that time, he was just simply not in Ukraine. He was in Germany.
    Interesting
  24. 4 min later

  25. 0:49:38 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    There are Nazis and white supremacists in Ukraine, but they are more marginal there than the same groups are in Central Europe or the United States.

    Their wordsMy understanding is there are Nazis in Ukraine and there are supporters of white supremacy theories, but also my understanding is that they are extremely marginal and they are more marginal than the same sort of groups are in Central Europe, maybe in the U.S. as well.
    Interesting
  26. 3 min later

  27. 0:52:45 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Ukraine, at war, is the country with no right or far right in its parliament, which cannot be said of Germany or France.

    Their wordsSo, Ukraine is the country where there is no right or far right in the Parliament. We can’t say that about Germany, we can’t say that about France, so that’s just one more way to stress this unique place of Ukraine in that sense.
    Interesting
  28. 2 min later

  29. 0:54:45 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Denazification works as propaganda because the words fascism and Nazi make a post-Soviet audience stop analysing, not just start listening.

    Their wordsSo, once you use terms “fascism,” and “Nazi,” and “denazification,” suddenly people, not just start listening, they just stop analyzing. And as a propaganda tool, this is, of course, very powerful tool.
    Interesting
  30. 7 min later

  31. 1:01:43 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Defining Ukraine's war record by the 20,000 men of the Division Galizien makes the 2 to 3 million Ukrainians who fought in the Red Army irrelevant, which is what propaganda is for.

    Their wordsSo, there is a period of collaboration, and that’s what propaganda tries to define him by, or there is a Division Galizien by 20,000 people, and somehow it makes irrelevant the experience of 2-3 million people.
    Interesting
  32. 4 min later

  33. 1:06:03 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Propaganda is rarely an outright lie — usually it is one real fact taken out of context and blown out of proportion, and answering it on its own terms is already losing to it.

    Their wordsThat’s the only way how you deal with propaganda, because propaganda is not necessarily something that is an outright lie. It can be just one factor that’s taken out of the context and is blown out of proportion. And that is good enough.
    Interesting
  34. 32 min later

  35. 1:37:58 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    The Russian language is not persecuted in Ukraine, and believing that it is has one important precondition: never having set foot in the country.

    Their wordsSo, imagine under those conditions and context that someone is persecuting ethnic Russians or Russian speakers. One, to believe in something like that, one important precondition is never to step your foot in Ukraine.
    Interesting
  36. 15 min later

  37. 1:52:33 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Russians and Ukrainians behave differently even when they speak the same language: police violence ended the protests at Bolotnaya and began them on the Maidan.

    Their wordsYou have Bolotnaya in Moscow and police violence, and that’s the end of it. You have the Maidan in Ukraine and you have police violence, and that’s the beginning, that’s not the end.
    Interesting
  38. 1 min later

  39. 1:54:02 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Russian identity formed around the state and cannot imagine itself outside one, while the Ukrainian project came into existence in revolt against the state.

    Their wordsRussia and Russian identity was formed around the state, and has difficulty imagining itself outside of the state, and that state happened to be imperial for most of Russian history. Ukrainian project came into existence in revolt against the state.
    Interesting
  40. 7 min later

  41. 2:00:50 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    NATO was the justification for the invasion of Ukraine and not its cause: if it were the real concern, half the Russian army would have moved to the new Finnish border.

    Their wordsSo if NATO is the real concern, it would be probably not completely unreasonable to expect that if not every single soldier, but at least half of the Russian army fighting in Ukraine would be moved to protect the new border with NATO in Finland.
    Interesting
  42. 10 min later

  43. 2:11:17 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Boris Johnson did not talk Ukraine out of a peace deal: it is not possible to imagine Zelensky taking orders from anybody against his own judgement.

    Their wordsI asked people who accompanied Boris Johnson to Kiev that question, the answer was no. And I believe this answer, and I’ll tell you why. Because it is very difficult for me to imagine President Zelensky to take orders from anybody in the world.
    Interesting
  44. 7 min later

  45. 2:18:01 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Writing five Ukrainian regions into the Russian constitution tied the hands of Putin and of any successor: there is no return to the borders of 2022 without political change in Moscow.

    Their wordsSo that means that no return to the borders of 2022 without political change in Moscow are possible.
    Interesting
  46. 19 min later

  47. 2:36:52 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    The war Russia is fighting in Ukraine is, in intellectual terms, the plan Solzhenitsyn formulated: a Russian nation state of Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians, and failing that, Donbas, Crimea and southern Ukraine.

    Their wordsSo in historical terms and intellectual terms, what is happening today in the war between Russia and Ukraine is the vision on one level or another level that was formulated by the noble laureate Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, half Russian, half Ukrainian.
    Interesting
  48. 14 min later

  49. 2:50:58 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    The Soviet Union fell in good part because of the mobilisation over Chernobyl: the first mass demonstrations in Ukraine were about radiation, not about language or autonomy.

    Their wordsAnd then guess what? A few years later, the Soviet Union collapses very much also thanks to the mobilization of people over the issue of Chernobyl and nuclear energy.
    Interesting
  50. 12 min later

  51. 3:02:46 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    There will be more nuclear accidents, because every one of them exposes a vulnerability nobody had imagined: Chernobyl, then a tsunami, then a war.

    Their wordsBut next accident would actually expose new vulnerability. You deal with Chernobyl and then tsunami comes. You deal with tsunami and then war comes.
    Interesting
  52. 3 min later

  53. 3:05:35 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Nuclear power is politically unreliable as an answer to climate change, because every major accident freezes reactor construction worldwide for another decade.

    Their wordsAnd each major accident, that means global freeze on the nuclear reactor production for at least another 10 years. So that’s what I mean that nuclear industry is politic, not just in terms of technology and not just in terms of radiation, impact on health, but also politically a very, very unreliable option.
    Interesting
  54. 7 min later

  55. 3:12:28 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    The right question about the Cold War is not what we did wrong but what we did so right that seventy years passed without a world war.

    Their wordsThe right question to ask is how did it happen? What did we do so right that for now more than 70 years, we don’t have a world war? How come that after World War I, World War II came within 20 years?
    Interesting
  56. 3 min later

  57. 3:15:40 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    Leaders in a nuclear crisis who believe they are in control are not in control, and events on the ground can escalate against their wishes.

    Their wordsSo people who believe that they’re in control really are not in control, and that can escalate whether they very often against their wishes.
    Interesting
  58. 2 min later

  59. 3:17:50 · watch on youtube.com↗

    Our reading

    The Cuban missile crisis was caused by nuclear weapons and resolved by them: what saved the world was not the weapons but two leaders who were frightened of them, and that fear has faded.

    Their wordsThe crisis occurred because of the nuclear weapons, because Khrushchev put them on Cuba, but the crisis was resolved and we didn’t end in the third World War because of the nuclear weapons, because people, leaders were afraid of them.
    Interesting